Women Leading for Change

Location: Graduate Center at the City University of New York

Event Date: June 6, 2005

Speakers: Dina Dublon, Judith Kaye, Thoraya Obaid

Moderator: Janet Holmgren

Quotes

“The biggest challenge for women is that they lack the power necessary to change patriarchal organizations.”

-Janet Holmgren

“More women in power will make a better world. We will make a difference when there are more of us, because we will bring in the women’s perspective. This means promoting the vision of a more humane workplace.”

-Dina Dublon

“Women have a responsibility to other women. I take my gender with me wherever I go. Gender justice and equality should be a priority on our lists.”

-Judith Kaye

“We need to use the power we have wisely, articulate the power we do have, and emphasize how powerful we are as an engine for economic and educational growth. This means seeing power at all levels.”

-Thoraya Obaid

Overview

The imperative for women to lead for change is now stronger than ever. Here, successful leaders from diverse contexts shared their visions, agendas, and accomplishments, as well as commented on key hurdles and risks they faced and foresee. Panelists explored factors—like who else occupies positions of power—that have made a difference in women’s leadership. They shared their views of the current landscape for emerging women leaders today.

Summary

Janet Holmgren, President of Mills College and NCRW Board Chair, opened the conference by noting, “The biggest challenge for women is that they lack the power necessary to change patriarchal organizations.” She pointed out that 2005 is the 10-year anniversary of the Beijing Conference, and that many of the proposed goals of the original conference have not been met. “We need renewed energy to support the Beijing platform to encourage equality for women,” she said, adding that religious fundamentalism is the chief source of perpetuating bias and inequality against women.

Dina Dublon, Former Chief Financial Officer at JP Morgan Chase, explained that as a management trainee at Chemical Bank, she knew she was hired because of her gender. Of the 20 trainees hired that year, 18 were women. “Gender was a central criterion at that time, because the bank was opening the trading floor to women for the first time. But, despite the intentions of the training program, women ultimately were not asked to join or chose not to remain on the floor,” Dublon said. Dublon asserted that the women hired were highly competent and educated. “The organization thought that they did all they needed to do just by hiring these women, but after two years, I was one of only two women left,” she explained. Dublon said that the problem lay in the organization’s failure to adequately alter its behavior and policies in order to retain women.

“The key to my own success was resilience and perseverance, and the ability to keep at it no matter what,” Dublon asserted. “You must be openly demanding of yourself, of your organization, and of your boss. You must be confident.” She advised that because sharing is not common among groups of males, it might be better “not to share your anxieties,” for they can be easily misinterpreted. Instead, she recommended that women seek out good sponsors and a strong support system. She concluded by adding that today, 30 percent of those on the trading floor are women and hiring is 50/50.

Judith Kaye, Chief Judge of the Court of Appeals for New York, followed Dublon by proclaiming, “Affirm, affirm, affirm!” Kaye explained that she grew up in Monticello, New York, at a time when there were neither female judges nor female legal role models. Kaye wanted to be a journalist, but when she graduated in 1958, no one wanted to hire a female journalist. “Adversity can be a blessing,” Kaye remarked. “I decided to attend law school at night to be considered a ‘serious person.’ Of course, law was not a welcoming place for women either, though,” she said. After law school, Kaye worked at Sullivan & Cromwell in New York City. She became Associate Judge of the Court of Appeals in 1983, making her the first woman to serve on New York State’s highest court. In 1993, she was appointed Chief Judge and was the first woman to occupy the State Judiciary’s highest office.

Support for Kaye’s goals and work generally came from men—“men who could stomach it,” she asserted. In response to this phenomenon, she held that, “Women have a responsibility to other women. I take my gender with me wherever I go. Gender justice and equality should be a priority on our lists.”

Thoraya Obaid, Executive Director of the United Nations Population Fund, agreed with Kaye about the need to find solid support systems. “My family was very supportive. My dad wanted a girl, while my mom was probably the first feminist of the Arabian Peninsula,” she explained. Her solid Islamic knowledge and faith pushed her to learn, “because to be a good Muslim, one must be knowledgeable and literate.” Obaid attended school in Cairo and learned about other religions, U.S. culture, and politics. “I wanted to go to the United States, but every women’s college rejected me except Mills College. It was probably for the best, though. Mills brought me to the forefront and taught me how to lead,” Obaid asserted.

Obaid said that she and many other women must wear 5,000 hats a day. “We try to be supermom, wife, housekeeper, worker, etc.” Her own support came largely from her father and her brother. “In developing countries, it’s often the fathers who make a difference; in patriarchal societies, it’s usually fathers who have the power to make a difference. I lacked female support because there were no women around to turn to,” Obaid said.

“When I was later at Wayne State, I began to see issues of racial difference. I aligned with blacks to limit discrimination because Iraqi-run supermarkets in black neighborhoods were overcharging black customers,” Obaid recounted. Turning back to the issue of women she stated, “The problem remains today that women’s empowerment is considered a ‘soft issue.’ United Nations organizations are supposed to have a male to female ratio of 50/50. Yet only 15 ambassadors are female, which is still far from parity,” Obaid lamented. She recommended that professional women coach others and try to understand younger women. “All women must recognize that gender is not an impediment,” she said.

Holmgren then asked the panelists, “How do we manage this balancing act? How do we integrate our home and work lives?”

Dublon responded first. “I experienced role reversal with my spouse, who has a Ph.D. in Physics and was a Professor at Harvard. Now, he’s a full-time artist and a stay-at-home dad.” Dublon said she felt driven to prove stereotypes wrong. “For example, to test my commitment to my work, my boss sent me to Florida for a few months while I was pregnant. Of course, I went. The current generation of women who try to do everything must realize that there are always tradeoffs. I chose the workplace over my kids at points,” she said. “What’s necessary is balance. There must be an even distribution of work between parents. The responsibility cannot be solely on the mother. Women have been taking on male roles, but there has been little progress in the other direction. Redefining the world of choices for men is a new battleground for feminists,” Dublon said.

Kaye added, “It’s not a women’s problem, but a human problem.” She was also sent to Florida when her children were young and now realizes that she should have refused to go. Kaye’s daughter is now a lawyer with three children of her own. “Perhaps, in the end, [my job] was not so hard on my children. Otherwise, [my daughter] would not have chosen the same path.” In response Holmgren commented, “It is difficult to articulate the work-life balance. We like our work, but must be careful not to trivialize or degrade how much we love our kids, too.” She emphasized that we all must remember, too, that there is a wide variety of women’s experiences, noting that 50 percent of women in academia and presidencies do not have children.

On the topic of work-life balance, Obaid said, “You cannot assume your partner understands your balancing act.” She also said that the guilt associated with leaving children while you work is an educated, middle-class issue. “Women in the developing world do not have time to worry about guilt,” she explained. “I traveled a lot but did not feel guilty. In my culture, the concept of larger, non-nuclear families helped provide a ‘social security system’ for my family even when I was away,” Obaid made clear.

Identifying another problem, Obaid stated, “Women in the developing world failed to dialogue with men as they moved to the front. I am afraid the same situation is happening now between adults and adolescents; as the latter move forward, we fail to educate and dialogue with the older generation.”

Holmgren moved onto the next question, asking “What is it you see and/or want to change, and what are the consequences in your work arena if you, as a woman, attempt to make change?”

“Change male colleagues; convince them that women’s issues are not soft issues,” Obaid exclaimed. “Also, there is a gap between the reality that workers face and what happens in headquarters. It is a schizophrenic situation between reality and rhetoric. Headquarters need to understand the daily reality of workers and frame our agenda around that.” Obaid continued, “It is difficult to convince women to do work-life programs because they are afraid of the stigma. We must change the concept of work and the idea that staying at home is not work.”

Kaye responded to the question by noting, “We are still far from justice in the legal system. For example, although 50 percent of classes at law school are women, there are so few women making head partners at firms. Only one-third of corporate justices are women. There is a statistical gap that exists, especially in the private sector and in the corporate world.”

Kaye agreed with Obaid. She said, “In the legal system, too, ‘women’s issues’ are deemed ‘soft issues.’ Examples include the way that the legal community views family court, poverty, child abuse, domestic violence, children in the courts, etc.” Kaye recommended a reframing of the issues. “Women are just as important as corporate transactions! Make women front and center, and not just the forgotten step children of the justice system,” she asserted.

Holmgren’s next question was, “Where is the power? Who defines what it is? Is it chromosomal or chronological?”

Dublon answered, “More women in power will make a better world. We will make a difference when there are more of us, because we will bring in the women’s perspective. This means promoting the vision of a more humane workplace. Working 24 hours a day, seven days a week is not sustainable. Also, questions of corporate citizenship must be dealt with differently. This definition needs a more open perspective to women’s needs to ‘work-off’ or ‘work out.’ The definition of a good worker also needs to incorporate more opportunities to take off and then reintegrate and reengage,” Dublon suggested. She added, “Expressing your opinions will make you more powerful. Encouraging and contributing to the network of women is vital. We must create a dialogue between men and women, because it is a necessary precedent for change.”

Holmgren then turned to the audience for additional questions. One participant asked, “What about the concept of women as oppressors – women who ‘do nothing’ as a means of survival?”

Kaye responded, “Women are overwhelmingly, but not universally, extraordinary and amazing. That said, women are 50 percent of society and are also responsible for the slowness of its evolution. It is true that women support the status quo at times.” Kaye continued, “I think that men in positions of power are becoming more sensitive, so there is no excuse for women not to behave in a humane and just way; we can’t be self-absorbed. What you are talking about is when women are apprehensive about taking a visible role. This is a defense mechanism. The goal is to be ‘more masculine’ than the men around them. I do not think that works.”

Another audience member then asked, “What are the important takeaways in the context of the current stagnation in women’s representation across various sectors? What are some points of action that we, collectively, might take?”

Obaid answered, “We need increased international advocacy and implementation of laws, especially in developing countries. There is no monitoring; men in power are not paying attention. We also need to empower women to move agendas forward.” She continued, “We need to use the power we have wisely, articulate the power we do have, and emphasize how powerful we are as an engine for economic and educational growth. This means seeing power at all levels. The community level has leaders, too!”

“Many of your stories make it seem like your success was something of a ‘miracle,’ a product of ‘being in the right place at the right time,’” one participant commented. She continued, “Miracles are more likely to happen if we have class and race privilege. It is true that gender is a marked category, but most women suffer more from class- and race-based discrimination than gender. When we speak of successes, which women are we talking about? Who are the 50 percent of law students, the 18 other trainees hired for the management program at the Chemical Bank?” The participant concluded by stating, “The response of white women must be to take on the causes of other minorities in the workforce; white affluent women especially should take on this responsibility and work beyond gender issues.”

The panelists engaged with these important questions and with each other in an exchange, commenting that success is often also a result of pressure. Some noted that others had made their lives and success possible, “so we must also make pressure and claim our work as miracle makers” for the next generation of women and men in their communities. Some maintained that they were the beneficiaries of good luck, and others of privilege, but all noted that they also worked hard to get where they are.

Another audience member asked for advice for finding male mentors.

Kaye suggested, “Create your mentor: decide what you’re looking for, then systematically go out and interview. Also, in your generation, women are not as much of a minority, so seek out everyone, men and women. People with daughters are especially good candidates.”

Dublon added, “Build trust: go and ask for help, listen to the person’s willingness to offer advice, search for people who are willing to offer you their time and expertise.”

The panel concluded with a final audience question: “Are women afraid to be seen as ‘too supportive’ of each other?”

Dublon explained that she had monthly meetings with senior management women to offer support. “It’s less threatening if framed as constructive meetings offered in the spirit of making the company better, of improving retention and the workplace overall,” she said.

Holmgren concluded by citing a famous quote from Margaret Mead: “Never doubt the power of a few committed people to change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has.”

Contributed by Joanne Villanueva and Danielle Crowell

Points for Action:

• See and seek power at all levels, from the community level to the Presidency.

• Reframe “women’s issues” (family issues, domestic violence, child abuse, poverty, etc.) as “hard” rather than “soft” issues, and as “human” problems.

• Create a dialogue with men to make them aware of the inequities women face, yet also work to redefine the world of choices for men to ensure a more even distribution of work among those who are parents.

• Coach other women; support others up the ladder rather than pulling it up behind you; mentor younger women.

• Exert pressure in the legislative arena as a means of moving women’s agendas forward.

• Increase international advocacy and implementation of laws, especially in developing countries where there is often no monitoring.

• Ensure diversity in hiring across all industries and spectrums.

• Wield the power you have wisely, emphasizing how powerful women are as an engine for economic and educational growth.